Top Takeaways From Residency and Entrepreneurship with Dr. Neel Desai

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[00:01:11] Dr. Taylor Brana: Alright, guys, this is another episode of The Happy Doc, and I’m here with Dr. Neel Desai today. What’s up Neel?

[00:01:28] Dr. Neel Desai: What’s up Taylor? Hey everyone, how’s it going? Well they can’t answer me [laughs]

[00:01:35] Dr. Taylor Brana: I know. If you could answer us, that would be a little bit creepy. 

[00:01:38] Dr. Neel Desai: That would be really weird. I’d be totally freaked out.

[00:01:43] Dr. Taylor Brana: So for today, we’re planning a bit of a reverse episode, Neel’s going to be asking me some questions.and we’ll probably just get into some like fun stuff. And, basically we’ve been kind of doing this once a year, where after every little milestone of my residency, Neel has been asking me questions about what I’ve learned throughout the year, and then we just kind of talk about it.

[00:02:07] So I’m excited to do this. 

[00:02:11] Dr. Neel Desai: Cool. Role reversal. Let’s go.  

[00:02:15] Dr. Taylor Brana: Ready when you are. Let’s shoot.

[00:02:18] Dr. Neel Desai: Let’s start with, let’s just, let’s get into it. So we do this every year, like Taylor said. So question one. So Taylor, tell me this year, what’s been your biggest takeaway after finishing your third year residency and let’s do parts.

And the second one is what’s your biggest mistake or learning experience from this year of training? 

[00:02:40] Dr. Taylor Brana: biggest takeaway this year. you know, there’s so many that it’s hard to define, but, the change for me this year as I went from more inpatient medical work to outpatient. And so there’s a different pace and outpatient, I think the biggest thing I’ve learned is to..

I mean, there’s so many things I can say. I would say the biggest thing though, is really to take advantage of my time and use it really wisely. And the reason I say that is because the transition from second year to third year for me has actually given me a lot more open space. And I think I told you this last year, when we started talking about it, which is all of that open space – I felt really uncomfortable because I was so used to working all the time. So yeah, that open space was really uncomfortable for me because I had gone from working like crazy to going to outpatient hours, which was not as crazy. And that was something that was strange for me, but also to take advantage of that open space, I started doing a lot more creative stuff as you, as you obviously know, and we’ll get into that for sure. I think a lot of people take that open space and they take it for granted and they start to use it for, you know, there’s a lot of good things you can do, like rest and relaxation or vegging out.

But I, I often. And this is the same thing, a theme that I did in my fourth year med school, when I had more space, I used that to try to create momentum to do good things that I would really enjoy. And so I think that that’s something that I’ve really taken away is if you do have a lot of open space, use it to maximize your enjoyment and like, that’s something I’ve really taken away. There’s obviously clinical pearls and medical stuff, but that’s something that I definitely think has been an important takeaway this year. The second part to your question, that was, what was the second part actually? 

[00:04:55] Dr. Neel Desai: What was your biggest mistake or learning experience from this training here?

[00:05:04] Dr. Taylor Brana: Hmm.. the biggest mistake.. 

[00:05:06] Dr. Neel Desai: I don’t know if I call it a mistake or like if there was something that maybe would,  you may have done something differently?

[00:05:14] Dr. Taylor Brana: I would, I would say something, you know, I think I did year pretty well in general, I think, I think that the hardest part of this last year has definitely been dealing with the personal and you know this from your work, is dealing with the difference between the distance you have with patients and the hospital versus the up close and personal that you get when you’re with patients in outpatient, like you really get to know them. And, that comes with its own sets of burdens, I would say.

and so I would say it’s not necessarily a mistake, but just ..having to calibrate and like to figure out that line of getting really personal and connecting with the patient, but also being able to not make it as personal. I think that’s been a hard thing to navigate. and sometimes I feel like I haven’t done that well, so. 

[00:06:19] Dr. Neel Desai:Yeah. So getting back to the, I wanted to get back to that first answer you were talking about on unstructured spaces. I think that’s very relevant to what’s going on now, just making an observation insight about what COVID and everything. We have a lot of teams that are like medical trainees or healthcare trainees and our teams that were working on side projects.

[00:06:39] And a lot of what we hear is that they’re not really sure because there’s so much uncertainty. And we talked about this before with. When they changed the USMLE to pass fail, like, what does that mean? You know, no one knows what’s going to happen.

[00:06:54] Dr. Taylor Brana: Right.

[00:06:55] Dr. Neel Desai: So, what is some, maybe just kinda like giving some tips or advice because there’s a lot of uncertainty in right now for everyone. 

[00:07:03] Dr. Taylor Brana: Yeah

[00:07:07] Dr. Neel Desai: Any tips? because it can kind of drive people crazy,  give them a lot of stress and anxiety, you know, but not having, like being able to plan certain things. No uncertainty. What is your best advice for our listeners for navigating this situation of unchartered waters and uncertainty and anxiety?

[00:07:27] Dr. Taylor Brana: Well, when you have a lot of chaos out in the external world, that can make you feel chaotic inside and it can make it hard to sort of like you said, the waters out in the world are crazy. So what we need to do is, when that’s difficult, we have to create structure for ourselves. And that’s something that there’s, there’s two ways to kind of structure things.

I have a preference in the way I do it. You know, if you want to maintain discipline, one way to be structured is to literally plan your calendar. Meticulously. I wake up at eight every morning. I do this, this, and this every day, I’m going to get this accomplished and this accomplished. So one route, one tip is to be very, is to plan ahead.

And to create structured routines, regardless of what’s happening out in the world. So for example, that would be like, you know, I’m gonna exercise 10 minutes in the morning. I’m going to prepare my breakfast the night before. I’m going to go on a walk. I’m going to meditate for 10 minutes. I’m going to journal for X, Y, Z amount of time.

Right? So those are all ways to create that structure. I’m going to have a nighttime routine. So creating those routines and those structures in place are super important to do that. Also, why the heck are you organizing yourself in that first place? You have to have something that you’re passionate about, a creative project, a thing that you’ve always wanted to try a book you wanted to read, a movie, you wanted to watch, an instrument you wanted to play. You have to have something to look forward to when all of that crap is happening. And so when you have all that set up, then everything works out. So one thing is to create that structure, right? So I gave one idea, which is this disciplined structure to create organization out of the world of chaos. The second way, which I’m preferring to do, because it’s actually hard for me to be as disciplined and motivated, is I literally just have a whiteboard of Goals of the Day. It doesn’t matter when I complete it, but I do have to complete it. So I personally like to get into what I call the positive action flow, where I take care of a few good things in the morning.

And if you take care of a few things in the morning, like tasks, it’s a lot easier to start to get through the day. On top of that is something that I really like to talk about. Actually, Tony Robbins is the one who originated this concept. It’s called State Story Strategy. And the main concept is, the day looks a lot harder when you’re in a negative mindset, right?

So, if you start your day with something that increases your State, meaning, maybe you’re exercising in the morning, maybe you listen to music that gets you excited. If you read a passage or something that’s going to be inspirational. If you listen to a podcast that gets you pumped. If you increase your state, everything looks better.

You have more options in the day. If you don’t have a positive mindset and you come in, you wake up in the morning, groggy, you feel depressed. You’re just not going to operate in a way that’s going to be effective. So if you can think of a way to improve your state, maybe the chaos in the world won’t have as much of an effect.

[00:10:55] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent. The other thing I’d add just a little bit for me, one thing that’s been helpful, is because of so much uncertainty, I just, I agree with you, creating routines where you control your own, kind of like, being more proactive, as opposed to reactive, to external stressful sources gives you more autonomy and agency over what you want to do.

One, that puts you more, makes you feel more in control. The second thing is, because things, I don’t look at it more than that, this point with everything that’s going on, I don’t look at it more than the day or the week. I can’t because. You can’t really do that because everything is fluctuating and it’s all in flux.

So, you can make plans for next week and it’s all gone. So I just focused on getting, what can I control for the day and what can I control for the week? And that’s it, that’s as far as my vision goes and that’s, you know, I’m doing, like you were saying, doing those things that kind of help. So I wanted to give the suggestion for that because that’s been, especially during stressful times where us being healthcare professionals in dealing with COVID and all this stuff. So, I can’t even think about schedules for next month or anything like that, you know? So it’s just taken day by day and week by week and do those things that Taylor said. So, number two. What is your best advice that you have for new interns? Second year residents and third year?

[00:12:34] Dr. Taylor Brana: Well, interns are going to be weird, because they’re entering into a new world that, I think it’s going to be a tougher transition than it has been before, just because now we’re entering into a COVID and COVID world.

And also a, you know, you know, social justice amplified world as well with the Black Lives Matter movement and everything that’s happened. So. Yeah. You know, with this changing world, obviously there’s a lot of things that are different, but I would say that, things that are salient for an intern year, like step number one is you don’t know anything.

You know what it’s like from a medical student perspective, but you will be handling a new level of responsibility, listen to your preceptors, listen to your attendings, listen to your senior residents and just be a sponge. The big thing is don’t have a big ego. Ask lots of questions if you’re not sure.

Ask early, and ask often and it’s okay to be a little bit “annoying” at first. Obviously, you do have knowledge that is effective, but the big thing about being an intern is you’re still at a state where you don’t really know what you don’t know. You’re still early in your career. You haven’t seen enough cases for your set of your specialty, or whatever it is that you’re doing.

[00:13:57] So you need to just immerse yourself and ask lots of questions. Why did the attending or the senior and make the decisions they made? Understand the underlying reasons. If there’s a case or something you don’t understand, use the resources, you know, use, you know, whatever textbook you’re using, go on UpToDate, go onto these different websites, go to Medscape, read whatever you need to do to understand what’s actually happening.

You’re creating your database. No one is expecting you to be perfect, but they are expecting you to show up and to learn. So, intern year is really just about this consistent, and again, persistent behavior, to just constantly learn. Don’t beat yourself up. We all make mistakes. And it’s all about improvement over time.

The worst thing you can do is to lie about what you saw or, or not ask questions when you don’t know something, because if you’re lying, obviously that’s terrible. You’re going to hurt the patient. You’re going to hurt the team, and that’s never going to help. So be honest and number two is to ask lots of questions, because if you’re not, you’re doing yourself a disservice in the longterm.

So that’s what I would say to every intern I work with. Just in terms of principals, As a second year, you start to know lots of stuff. But you’re still – ideally speaking, you know enough in second year to know that you don’t know certain things. So now you’ve kind of captured the broad amount of things that you’re probably going to see.

And then I would, I often, and I literally just had this conversation with someone who’s in second year. I was like, you’ve probably seen like 90-ish percent of the things you’re probably going to see commonly, there’s probably 5-10% you probably haven’t seen, and you need to identify what you haven’t seen yet and be aware of what you haven’t seen and be able to start to notice when that’s happening.

So when it does, you can talk to your seniors, you can talk to the attendings. No one is going to beat you up. You know, you’re probably going to get a little beat up if you can’t do the common things at this point. But no, one’s going to get mad at you if you can’t do the uncommon things, but you need to be able at this point to most likely identify the uncommon things and then ask questions about the uncommon things.

As a third year, I would say the biggest, the big thing now is you’re a senior, you know, you’re, a junior attending, basically at this point, for most specialties, you know, there’s some that are longer, of course. And at this point, you probably know an even larger amount, but it’s, it’s funny as you obviously know the more, you know, the less, you know, so now it starts to become a thing where you start to work with more nuanced cases.

You are starting to deal with more complex thinking. I noticed when I’m talking to attendings now, it’s not like someone’s right and someone’s wrong. It’s more about having that complex sort of conversation. So now you’re, ideally speaking, you’re at a level where you’re going to have that more complex thinking.

The other thing I’d start to do as a third year, and this is something that, again, I’m probably neurotic in this way, is start to think about what you actually want to do in the future. Start to think about what your career looks like. And I’m not just talking about your medical career, but also your life.

Where do you want to live? What’d your finances want to look like, what does your future schedule want to look like? What sort of things might you want to do in the future? And there’s so many things like there’re so many options out there, the way your lifestyle looks like. So don’t limit yourself to what everyone else is telling you.

Open your mind to the possibility that you can be, possibly, entrepreneurial. You can do something creative. You can start a podcast, you can learn a different instrument. You can live on the west coast, or you can live on an island. You can live in the North. You can live in the South. Open up your mind to different possibilities.

Also learning things like negotiating contracts, understanding disability insurance, understanding 401(k), Roth IRA and finances, understanding how much your salary really does for you and what it really might not do for you. Cause a lot of people, you know, and I’m learning this too, is when you become an attending, you think you have a lot of money, but you’ve been postponing your loans, most likely.

So, I would say there’s a lot of life things that also need to start to be worked through. And, I know we’ve been delayed for a long time, but you still gotta, you still gotta live frugally and think about those decisions. So, as a third year, I think you, you know, as you get more comfortable in the medicine stuff, you can start to think about what that future looks like.

For some people that’s taking that fellowship for some people that’s going straight through and getting a job. For some people, it might be, you know, I’m going to take a six month break. So you just have to, you have to think about what those things are. So, those are some like general things I would think about.

[00:19:03] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. So, for third year, two points I’d add on just to what you – that was all great – malpractice, also, you want to know the rates and depending on your specialty, like, what is that from wherever you’re gonna practice? Two, the second thing is also, like you’re saying a lot of times now there’s a tendency to be overwhelmed by so many choices, or so many things, start with what you absolutely hate and do not want to do. You’re like, don’t want to? Make that list first. You’re like not doing that. Like, you know, maybe hospital medicine, maybe it’s urgent care, maybe whatever it is, like, what is your practice? So it’s kind of like, kind of defining what you’re willing to, what you’re looking for. Start by saying, what is it that you’re just like, it’s not for me. And that kind of helps eliminate a lot of the things where you, you know, based on your interests, skills, values, passions, and goals. So, I think that’s also two other points.

[00:19:57] Dr. Taylor Brana: A hundred percent. And then also the other things too, like things like I didn’t realize, and I’m sure a lot of people who are residents under know these things, but if, you know, if you don’t like locum tenens, you don’t have to get a steady job. I know someone who works six months of the year doing locums, and then travels for six months of the year. Now, it’s a little different, you know, with COVID and everything, but your lifestyle doesn’t have to be what’s dictated of the stereotypical way people have thought about working.

[00:20:29] Okay. You can be a nocturnist right. You don’t have to work during daytime. I would go crazy. So you just have to, you have to think about what works for you and then like you’re saying yeah. What you hate, what you love.

[00:20:41] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. And there’s so many options, remote telenet, telenet, like there’s, you can mix and match things. It’s not the traditional, when I was in practice, when I was a kid, you know, young kids, when I was your age walking both up the hill and back in snow. [laughs]

[00:21:00] Dr. Taylor Brana: when I had to walk 15 miles and get a piece of steak, loaf of bread [laughs] Yeah I know, I know

[00:21:08] Dr. Neel Desai: you know, it’s not like that. It’s like, what we just looked through all of our past episodes, we’ve highlighted all these different careers outside of traditional, just, oh, you have to be just a hospitalist or just like office based, you know, the traditional medicine is that’s been turned on its head, everything right now, just in general, healthcare, everything, society is all being reshuffled. So that’s an opportunity to kind of say, well, what do I really want?

[00:21:35] It’s not just going to be, a one track, you know, take my step, then go to the next thing. Obviously you have to do that, but once you’re done and out and finish your training, then you have options. You can, you can mix and match it to your, what you want your lifestyle, that you want it to be. And that’s what we’re trying to kind of promote with our podcasts and people that we highlight, is that you don’t have to do it the traditional way.

There are other ways and the people who do that, that make it, they don’t do the cookie cutter thing. People that figure out what’s right for them. They’re the ones that are most energized, excited, fulfilled, and doing their thing, you know? So that’s what we kind of promote. 

[00:22:14] Dr. Taylor Brana: It’s about control. It’s about controlling your life. It’s about being proactive and being able to say, you know what, I’m not going to let life control me. I’m going to proactively think about how I’m going to get from A to B. Also, something you said there, the reshuffling thing, by the way, like, again, not to make this all about finances, but right now, financially speaking is a fantastic time to look at refinancing loans because interest rates are an all time low. And so, you know, again, not to get into it, but you know, that’s just, it’s, it’s good to explore. If your interest rates are really high right now, I’ve been doing that. 

[00:22:51] Dr. Neel Desai: One of our guests, I think it was Dr. Amy, one of our earlier episodes, Dr. Amy Faith Ho, she said, triaged her life. This is a good time to do that right now. Everything – go look at all aspects of it. Personal relationship, finance, healthcare, your career, education, whatever it is. I think it’s good, it’s a – we’ve been kind of forced to step back because we’re going so fast and now it’s paused and now it’s a good time to reflect, which will actually let me get to the next question.

[00:23:20] Because of this COVID thing, there’s been an epidemic, there’s already an epidemic of loneliness, isolation, depression, anxiety, you know this, you’re in it, you see it. I’m just kinda like, just – driving crazy. People are meant to connect and be social animals.

And lately I’ve been kind of, even just personal, I’ve been kind of frustrated. It’s been a year since I’ve seen my family, you know, like. Hung out with them last summer and hung out with friends in January. Like, how do we navigate? Again, this is kind of like for, and it’s going to be amplified even more with stress of being in the, kind of the “frontlines.” There’s healthcare professionals who are going to be expected to do this, but then. The natural progression of healthcare training is very isolating and causes these silos that we talk about all the time. And there’s this tendency to kind of, try to deal with that on our own, asking for help just because we, this is our nature, you know, we’d to figure things out.

[00:24:25] So my question is, how do we, how do we handle this COVID as medical trainees, as professionals and all this kind of epidemic of, kind of like, isolation, kind of like, epidemic, what do we do? 

[00:24:39] Dr. Taylor Brana: So, I mean, one part, obviously there’s like the physical work of working with patients with COVID, obviously you’re going to listen to your staff and, the big thing here is no one’s dealt with this before.

[00:24:50] It’s been a hundred years since a major pandemic. So, no one’s dealt with this before. So we have to listen to our superiors. We have to listen to individuals who are really, you know, doing the research. And, obviously we need to work with that from that end of things. So, it’s an evolving story and we’re all figuring this out together. From the personal standpoint, like how do we deal with the mental difficulties of this?

How do we deal with the challenges of what’s going on? There’s two things that you always have to do, regardless of the challenge, whether it’s a pandemic, whether there’s a tiger attacking you (well, maybe not a tiger), but whatever challenges come up, besides these crazy acute challenges, there’s two things you always have to do.

And, if you do this, you will ultimately be in the best mindstate or mindset for handling it. Number one is acknowledgement. You can’t change reality. There’s no one, you can’t, you can’t change this reality. We’re here. Pandemic is here. COVID is here. It’s spread, it’s community spread.

There’s nothing we can do to change that. So we have to acknowledge what is. Number two, after that, his perspective and gratitude. Okay. You have to create the.. You know, David Goggins, he’s a Navy seal, he talks about this idea of the cookie jar. All of the crazy crap that you’ve gone through in your life.

You need to be able to, to think about all the challenges you’ve already gone through. And like, I’ve gone through this. I’ve gone through college, I’ve gone through med school. Now I’m going to be a resident. I’ve done what I’ve dealt with. All these difficulties you’ve dealt with difficult transitions in your past, you can get through this. So, one thing is to do an inventory. Perspective of your life story and that you can get through another difficulty. So that’s that one part of the perspective. The second thing is the gratitude part of the perspective. Healthcare workers, you have a job right now. You’re needed. You’re being represented as heroes. You know, whether we’re actually heroic or not, that’s another question, but right now we’re needed. We have jobs. We have paying salaries, we’re doing something that’s helping other people. That is a great honor. And it is something we’ve been looking forward to doing.

It is absolutely amazing. Every time you work with a patient. Whether they appreciate it or not, you’re able to help them. And that is something that is invaluable. Ppeople, literally their whole lives, are trying to impact society, and we get to do that on a daily basis. And that level of appreciation for what is happening, that gratitude, has to be constant. Also, residency, and this whole part, whether you’re residency or an attending, it’s not forever. Okay, this is a process of the story, it’s not forever.

So, we have to understand, when we have really great times, you know, that’s temporary. You have something beautiful happening, that’s going to be temporary. Also, hard times are temporary. So we have to understand when we’re feeling down, when we’re feeling blue, when we’re, when we’re on, when we’re on night float, when we’re having a crazy week, you know, sometimes you and I are talking and like, you know, stress relieving each other on the phone. The big thing is always like, look, this is temporary. I’m going to get my nap in or my rest, and I’ll feel better in a few days, you know? So it, everything is a revolving, evolving story. And, so if we have that, to just to summarize, if we have acknowledgement, acknowledging reality, if we have an inventory of understanding what we’ve gone through, if we have the gratitude perspective of understanding the position that we’re in, and we’re able to understand that all of these things are temporary, and it will progress. It will change, hopefully with the right work, it will improve. We can get through this. And then I think the last thing, and I kind of alluded to it, is support constantly. We have to – I mean, again, this goes without saying, we talk about this all the time, but you have to reach out. You have to talk to family members. You have to talk to people who energize you and people who are truly, empathetically and authentically, are actually listening to you and actually want to be there for you. If you have those pieces, you’ll, you’ll be able to navigate this a lot more successfully. 

[00:29:08] Dr. Neel Desai: I agree, a hundred percent. One last thing, because something we’ve mentioned in the previous episodes is also just acknowledge your feelings. You shouldn’t feel guilty about having them and just, you should be okay. Like, if you feel sad or angry or whatever, cause this is also like, one thing I’ve noticed is it’s also, we’re going through a collective grief process, because we’ve lost a lot of things, and time, and experiences.

This is, this is grief, like collective, we’re all going through this collective shared grief experience. So I think it’s because – and everyone grieves differently – so just understand that. And it’s okay to feel how you’re feeling, but I think the key thing to that is, having someone, that outlet, that support, or reaching out to us, or reaching out to a professional or a friend or someone that can have empathy. I think the worst thing is kind of trying to deal with it on your own, you know, no one can get through this alone. That’s the biggest takeaway.

[00:30:02] Dr. Taylor Brana: Absolutely. And that’s part of that perspective, that collective grief is we’re all going through this, you know, we’re all, we’re all in this together. And sometimes that helps too. We’re here. 

[00:30:15] Dr. Neel Desai: So on a brighter note though, I think people need some hope and inspiration and energy here. So, let’s get to some positive things, something good. Next one, let’s talk about, we’ve been doing this thing for three years now. Three –  

[00:30:33] Dr. Taylor Brana: and a half years.

[00:30:36] Dr. Neel Desai: What have been your, let’s say, biggest lessons learned or takeaway from this journey of being on the podcast. And, I guess, the biggest mistakes or lessons learned,

[00:30:48] Dr. Taylor Brana: Oh my gosh

[00:30:49] Dr. Neel Desai: The good and the bad

[00:30:50] Dr. Taylor Brana: I would say, I would say the coolest lesson I’ve learned is that life has infinity lessons. And I, you know, the funny thing is, I’ve talked about this before, but the funny thing about podcasting as I, I thought I was going to hit a point where I would interview a guest. And there wouldn’t be anything interesting to learn. 

[00:31:09] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. I remember you telling me this. 

[00:31:12] Dr. Taylor Brana: I was like, I feel like there’s going to be this point and I’m like 

[00:31:16] Dr. Neel Desai: It’s gonna be the same stuff over and over

[00:31:18] Dr. Taylor Brana: and I’m going to get, I’m going to hit, like, maximal knowledge, you know, 

[00:31:22] Dr. Neel Desai: then I’m done. I’m like, yeah.

[00:31:24] Dr. Taylor Brana: And what I would say is like that, I think the biggest lesson is like a beginner’s mindset. Like the biggest lesson is like, yeah, I know a lot of things. So do you; doctors know a tremendous amount of things. Any professional does, but like humble, humble, humble, a million percent. Constantly read, constantly listen to new stuff, talk to people.

You know, when we talk about social justice right now with Black Lives Matter, talk to black people and understand their perspective, don’t make assumptions, right? Like, like just the entire beginner mindset, has been, just so helpful for me because when I learn a lot of stuff, and I actually listen, that allows me to then create more success. The other lesson I would say is, you can do a lot more than you think. You are as valuable as you believe you are. And, if you start to actually create evidence and learn and, and invest in yourself. And when I say invest in yourself again, that’s like listening to books, getting great mentors, taking courses, you know, actually, you know, assimilating effective information that’s gonna be valuable for you in your life. You can create so many opportunities. So I think. As I’m learning more, and as I’m getting further, along in my career, the opportunities are endless. There’s so many cool things you can do in life. And I, and I heard this one really good idea about depression. When you feel really depressed and you feel exhausted and you feel burnt out, life kind of cones in, and you feel like you have no choices. Right? And you feel like there’s no way to get out of this. When you feel happy, life opens up, like a cone in the opposite direction, you know, like, crap. I don’t have enough time. Like it’s impossible. So, those are a few things that are just, to be energized to have that beginner’s mindset to self invest. And there’s, if you, if you meet the right people, and you talk to the right people, there’s so many opportunities to learn and grow. So, keep that positive mindset. 

[00:33:36] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. So back to that, a beginner mindset. I would also call it adding another one of our Cs. So what we always have, like, we talk about the Cs.

[00:33:46]I don’t know if I had this one in the last one, but like, curiosity 

[00:33:50] Dr. Taylor Brana: Infinite curiosity?  

[00:33:52] Dr. Neel Desai: Infinite curiosity. Yeah. Cause being that kinda curious about like.. We see these patterns of high level successful people. It’s just, they’re sponges, and just curious about what other people are doing, what they’re up to, where their story is, how did they get to where they were?

You know, that’s part of what you do with podcasts. What I’ve done interviewing people for my book, or writing about them for our blog, same thing. It’s just being fascinated by other people’s stories. Cause you’re gonna learn, like you’re talking about Black Lives Matter or other podcasts’ guests experiences, just that curiosity is really kind of insightful and then you learn things, like, I didn’t` know that. 

[00:34:31] Dr. Taylor Brana: And I’ll, I’ll take that one step further too is like that, that curiosity, when you have a curious mindset, I’ve noticed this like, so if I’m having a hard shift or I’m having like a hard day, I don’t necessarily have that curious mindset.

And that actually impacts the way I talk to patients. But the best, I’ve noticed the best physicians on their best days, when you’re just authentically curious, you know, as a psychiatrist in the psychiatry residency, we deal with some of these patients that have not so strong communication skills or psychotic thinking and all those things.

But if you’re just curious, and even if they, even if someone says something ridiculous, you’re like, huh, what do you mean by that? What do you, what do you mean that there’s devil fire in your belly? Gosh. 

And without judgment without anything, but you’re just like, Oh, and, and, and, and like, you, you know, it is like sometimes like a medical student or a resident will pick up something you’re like, oh, they didn’t tell me that story.

But because if you’re curious, they’ll tell you something that might actually give you some valuable information. So even if for patient care, it’s still important. 

[00:35:40] Dr. Neel Desai: So we started, the flash go was a year ago? or two years?

[00:35:43] Dr. Taylor Brana: So I’ll do a little summary, so for those who haven’t kept up or aren’t aware, basically the projects we’re working on right now are The Happy Doc Podcast, and then Neel and I have partnered for multiple new podcasts and, also Alexa skills.

but mainly we’re focusing, focusing right now on the podcast. So right now we have MedFlashGo, which is for medical boards, for USMLE and COMLEX. We have DentalFlashGo, which is specifically right now for the DAT. We’re about to roll out the podcast very soon. We have the MCATFlashGo podcasts, which is of course for the MCAT.

And we’re going to be rolling out that MCAT podcast soon. We’re starting to get into – this is also exciting – which is the SATFlashGo podcast, specifically for high school students who want to take the SAT and then we’re, you know, starting and we hope to get this up and rolling soon, which is the SurgeryFlashGo podcast.

And I think we’re going to be focusing on the ABSITE that surgery residents need to take. So a lot of podcasts specifically to help lots of students learn information on the go, which is why there’s that FlashGo concept, flashcards on the go and movement, you know, being able to learn on the go.

So, we’re incredibly excited about that, but, the question you asked, which is basically like, what’s the takeaway of this process of, you know, building all this stuff out. The main takeaway I would say is as a leader, you don’t have to do everything. Your goal as a leader is to delegate and to communicate.

And I think a lot of times what happens, especially as physicians, is that we feel that because we’ve had this sort of attitude of perfection, we have to take on everything and we have to do everything. Our main goal is to see the big picture, and to give opportunities for other people to succeed, so we can be a leader and be able to carry out a mission, carry out an objective.

So we have to think big picture and you don’t always have to do everything. So, as you become more of a leader, this is why we use – not use, but we, I would say as part of the team, we have medical students, we have residents, we have staff, every person on the team can provide you the information, which allows you to make that, that optimal decision.

It’s the same thing with business building. And so understanding that sort of leadership mindset, as opposed to needing to do every single task has been, ultimately, I think the thing that’s allowed us to kind of get to this, I would say, our next level, which is delegating effectively creating systems and building out businesses and other opportunities.

and the big thing above all this stuff is like, I couldn’t have, honestly, it makes me a little, I’m a little emotional about it, but like, I would not have imagined what we’d be doing right now. And it’s, so it’s so exciting to think of what I am capable of, what you’re capable of.

And if you believe in yourself enough, you can get there. And really, belief is like the ultimate thing. If you actually believe you can get to some area in your life that you’d like to achieve, you can get there.

[00:39:11] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. And also, I agree, a hundred percent, same, feel a hundred thousand percent, everything you just said, a couple things just to maximize those things.

One thing I realized is that, we talked about this a lot, putting people in boxes. Kind of, we always talk about living in boxes, and breaking the silos. So one of the things, our philosophy is like, de-siloization where we just let people do their thing. I was thinking about this.

What is, once you identify it. For me, my skill set is identifying someone that’s talented at something. I was like the talent agent recruiting guests for you to interview. And I’m like, okay, how do you maximize their talent? You know, let them do their thing with a little bit of loose restraints where there’s so many rules and they’re being micromanaged. And our philosophy is, with what we’re building here for those who are listening, is that we want to build something where people can have that creative kind of outlet, creative space to do their thing at their maximum potential. And that’s because we’re doing that ourselves. And if we’re modeling that, and then we can show, if we can do it, then you can do it.

Anyone can do like, you know what I mean? Just finding what it is that you love and letting them do that skill set and being creative and having that, giving that off that the opportunity to do that, because I feel that that creativity has been stolen or like slowly kind of beaten out of us, or it’s slowly been sort of taken away from, or stolen from us.

But we’re trying to re-infuse that and kind of give that back to people. I think that will help people be more happy, healthy, wealthy, excited, energized, doing all those things we want to do.

[00:40:41] Dr. Taylor Brana: Right. And I think, so the biggest things that make people happy from a productivity standpoint are doing what you love and doing something you’re good at. When you combine what you love and what you’re good at. So this is, this gets to the concept of knowing that know thyself, right? If you know yourself well enough, eventually you’re going to know what you’re good at, and you’re going to know what you enjoy doing. If you do both of those things, you will be successful.

Now, you and I both, I think have a decent talent of, we’re able to pick out talents that people have, and so we’ve been able to leverage that. But for anyone listening, if you can figure out what you’re good at and what you love to do, not like, kind of love, like really love it. Like, you would do it without money.

And, if you’re good at that, there’s probably something you can do to leverage that, to provide value for other people. And if you can figure that equation out, you’re set. So that sort of creativity of like, thinking about those things and then finding the right way to implement that, that’s the million dollar question or whatever, right? But if you can do it, it’s it’s life changing, 

[00:41:54] Dr. Neel Desai: but it goes back to that, what we were talking about earlier, like find out what – I look at it like, is it a hell yes or a hell? No, like. Right, right. It’s like, fuck yes or fuck no.

[00:42:03] Dr. Taylor Brana: Yeah. No, we can curse here. [laughs] It’s the Happy Doc.

[00:42:10] Dr. Neel Desai: Fuck that, I’m not taking calls anymore. I’m like, fuck that. I’m like, you know, or like that or like, Oh this, yeah. I would get up at like, like for me, like for this shit, like for this, I get up at 4, 4:30am in the morning. I want to go listen to podcasts and study and research and figure out like, how are we going to work with, that kind of dedication and passion, like you’re willing to stay up all night, get up early, because you just love it, you know. That, when you find that, and then you’re right – if you’re good at it, you’re right. Like finding that thing. And then, and then also based on integrating that with your, your traditional formal education and training, if you can integrate that Venn diagram like those overlapping things. That is the sweet spot. 

[00:42:54] Dr. Taylor Brana: Yeah. And I mean, I hate to say it, but just listen to this podcast, listen to all the episodes and there’s going to be, you know, there’s so many gems and learning materials, like I’m, I’m constantly putting in episodes. Today I had a, you know, not today today, we’re recording it, but like the episode, I just put out about how to work in teams and understanding the emotional task of a team versus the objective task of a team.

If you don’t know those things, if you don’t, if you’re not cognizant, if you’re not constantly learning. You’re going to miss out on huge opportunities that could ultimately impact not just work by the way, relationships, friendships, opportunities in the future. You never know how one thing you learn is going to somehow impact a different opportunity in the future.

[00:43:41] Dr. Neel Desai: it’s all interconnected 

[00:43:42] Dr. Taylor Brana: A hundred percent

[00:43:43] Dr. Neel Desai: And that’s the biggest takeaway. We talked about connection a lot. That’s my whole theme – connection, creativity. Connect. It’s all kind of interconnected. So everything has an effect on the other thing. So you want to be, you know, you can’t have deficits in one area. You want to try to maximize your strengths as much as possible in all those areas of your life. Otherwise, you’re gonna end up like with us where we got exhausted, burnt out, you know, stressed out and all these other things. 

[00:44:13] Dr. Taylor Brana: The, the one thing I would to add to all of, this whole conversation is, a quote I’ll take from David Meltzer, who was one of our previous mentors we worked with, and he has this really great, great quote about happiness and that happiness is the enjoyment of the consistent persistent pursuit of your potential. And so for anyone listening to this, if you think about what your potential is in life, And if you feel that you, you are not reaching your potential, that you’re not able to give at your highest value, that you’re not able to enjoy your life at your highest value, that you’re not able to love at your highest value. If you’re not able to smile at you, you know, all of these things, whatever that ideal potential is, if you’re not chasing that potential and you’re not in pursuit of that, you will not feel excited. And, if you don’t enjoy that pursuit, which sometimes we don’t appreciate things, so we need to slow down and appreciate it, then we won’t feel happy. So if we can constantly chase towards our potential, the way that we can give to the world, that’s going to make us, ultimately, happy consistently over time. So. Consistent, which means, constantly working on it. Persistently, when we fall off track, we come back – that’s that persistence. Pursuit, going towards our potential. If we can do all those pieces and then enjoy that process, that’s it, you’ve won the game. 

[00:45:38] Dr. Neel Desai: He also says, You’re going to forget these lessons. David Meltzer always says that. Even he says this, like me and Taylor, we all have to, we have to keep learning these lessons over and over again. So don’t be hard on yourself. Don’t beat yourself up if you forget, because, it takes a lot of these lessons punch you in the fucking face a lot. Like, trust me, I’m 46, going to be 47. I’ve gotten punched in the face. Not literally, but yeah, you learn these things and eventually things kind of like, sink in hopefully. 

[00:46:10] Dr. Taylor Brana: And the more you do it, the more you fall off the horse and get back on the horse, the better you get, the better you get at getting back on the horse. So you have to consistently – when you fall off track, when you lose that line, when you lose your happiness, when you lose your gratitude, when you lose your meditation, when you lose your exercise, whatever your diet, whatever things you’re working on. Whatever habits are forming. When you fall off, if you get better at hopping back on, like, then you’ll get better at it. If you don’t, if you’re not training your muscle, then you’re, you’re going to lose it. So you have to constantly work on it.

[00:46:43] Dr. Neel Desai: Sometimes, I’ve also found if you’re having a hard time, instead of going to the extreme, just do like a small amount. Like, one is better than zero. 

[00:46:52] Dr. Taylor Brana: a hundred percent, 

[00:46:53] Dr. Neel Desai: A minute a day of something, or five minutes of day of doing something, is better than zero. So, at least it gets you into that thing. 

[00:47:00] Dr. Taylor Brana: I was listening to, I forgot the name of the entrepreneur but, I was listening to a podcast recently. And one of the podcasters said, the way he started getting into shape is he made the commitment of doing one pushup a day, because what he found was when he – It’s one pushup, whatever. And when he found, when he got to the ground, did the one pushup, he ultimately, he’s like, you know what? I’m already here, might as well do some pushups, might as well do some situps. And so, that one pushup a day mentality was the thing that forced him to actually create the habit of a consistent exercise routine. So, if you can’t exercise every day, do one pushup, do one block, whatever you need to do to get. 

[00:47:40] Dr. Neel Desai: I tell that with patients who want to lose an extreme amount of weight, like 50, 100, 200lbs, I said, you know, they, you know, you don’t have to be like running marathons. I said, go for a five minute walk, every day, simple, you can do five minutes, 10 minutes. Then the next day you can build it up. And then eventually, you know, you get that 30-40 minutes walk every day. That’s your recommended amount of exercise, physical activity for the week, so it’s just, it’s just building that momentum.

And I think that applies to a lot of aspects. It’s that flow and momentum we talk a lot about. We get into our ruts and stuff, I tell you, I think I’m in a rut, we get into these lulls. You know, how it is, we have those weeks and you’re just like, oh. And then you want to kind of get back into the flow and momentum.

It’s like, you just gotta do that one little thing. That’s like, what you say, what is one little thing I can do to get me back into that momentum? And then if you have one thing, it could be just listening to a podcast or going for a walk.  

[00:48:46] Dr. Taylor Brana: It’s conversation 

[00:48:47] Dr. Neel Desai: Or coffee, talking to someone, find something that energizes you and you do that one little thing that builds up momentum. That has been huge for, I think, both of us.

[00:48:54] Dr. Taylor Brana: Positive action flow. It’s overtime. Doing positive habits, taking positive action, thinking positively, working on yourself, constantly reading. Not only does it impact you, it impacts everyone around you. You attract people who tend to do those things. And over time you just create a network.

It’s almost impossible not to win. And whatever winning means to you. It’s literally the universe – I know it’s going to sound woo-wah or whatever – but the universe starts to work for you because you’re constantly doing good things and you’re creating good connections, which ultimately lets you get into better spaces. It’s impossible to lose when you’re surrounded by amazing people. 

[00:49:36] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. I used to be like – what the fuck is that woo-wah stuff.

[00:49:39] Dr. Taylor Brana: But it’s not woo-wah when you actually do it. 

[00:49:43] Dr. Neel Desai: It’s true. And I’m saying now it’s like, it’s true because, you’re putting yourself in situations. It’s more like you’re creating your own serendipity kind of for good shit to happen. We talk about that a lot. It’s like you just do the right things. And then things just tend to, or you do unexpected things. You’re like, oh, I didn’t expect that. So that was nice, you know? 

[00:50:07] Dr. Taylor Brana: Yeah

[00:50:08] Dr. Neel Desai: So, I think there is something, there is something, to that energy. I think you’re right

[00:50:11] Dr. Taylor Brana: Well, like addiction. We talked about this a lot in addiction people, places, things, right? If you’re around a lot of addicts, and you have friends who are addicts, and you’re around places where addiction can occur, around substances, what’s going to happen. 

[00:50:28] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah

[00:50:29] Dr. Taylor Brana: So, you need to change not just your mindset, but you also have to start to change the environment and you have to charge to change the attitude. You have to start to change the actions, all of those things, all of a sudden, if you’re around great people, if you have a great network, if you work consistently, if you’re providing value, what else can you attract? 

[00:50:49] Dr. Neel Desai: Only good stuff

[00:50:52] Dr. Taylor Brana: If you’re around people who are building, you know, success for themselves. You know, you’re going to create success. It’s not a guess.  

[00:51:01] Dr. Neel Desai: No. Then you’re getting into that kind of, you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with, that kind of thing, that energy and people that you’re surrounding yourself with. So, I think it’s super important. 

[00:51:12] Dr. Taylor Brana: It’s a real thing.

[00:51:14] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. Now that’s true. That’s true for both real life and who you’re spending time around virtually too, because everything’s virtual now. Keep an eye on that, and be aware of that because there are a lot of things that can drain you. We talked about energy vampires and energy boosters, trainers. So you want to make sure that you’re doing things to keep that tank as much to overflowing as possible because there are things that drain you. It’s inevitable. So try to keep that tank full.

[00:51:41] Dr. Taylor Brana: And look, you know, living, living a life where you’re reaching towards something beyond what most people do. If you’re listening to this right now and you want to do something for yourself, not for anyone else, but for yourself that maybe is a dream of yours, something you’d like to try. It doesn’t have to be anything crazy too, it could be something simple. Sometimes when you do that, people aren’t going to agree with you, but when you do that, and you actually start to achieve something that’s beyond what you would have believed, it gives you permission to start going for things that are beyond your circle of comfort and that generates your own intrinsic excitement around it. 

[00:52:20] Dr. Neel Desai: I’d also call it confidence. 

[00:52:22] Dr. Taylor Brana: Confidence. Yeah, absolutely. And on the concept of energy. You know, the whole energy. You talked about energy vampires, energy suckers. When you start to believe in yourself, you don’t need the energy of other people.

You start to get a fire inside of yourself. And when you believe in yourself, it’s game over. No one will impact you if you believe in yourself. If you truly believe that you can do more, that you can achieve more, if you can grow more, that you can provide more for people that you can create your own happiness. If you truly start to believe that, it’s game over. No one, no naysayer, no one’s going to put you down. You’re going to be able to achieve what you want to do.  

[00:53:02] Dr. Neel Desai: And then the best part is when you start seeing the results of that, it’s a compounding effect. It just kind of like, it builds on its stuff. And you’re like, cool. 

[00:53:11] Dr. Taylor Brana: When I said all that stuff, I wasn’t talking about arrogance. I’m talking about the real, the real confidence of believing, achieving, and actually getting the results because then you have a certainty that’s built inside of you. And when you feel more certain about what you’re doing, then you can be like, Not only am I confident, but actually have the results to back it up I can actually believe in myself here.

[00:53:30] Dr. Neel Desai: The other thing is with the result, I hear what you were saying, but yeah, one thing I want to make clear to the listeners also sometimes they tie the results of their self worth. Do not let that happen just because you may put all your effort into something and it may not be a “success.” And then they turn that into like, Oh, this was a failure. Oh, I’m a failure. And then, I’m awful, then that negative spiral. That’s not good. 

[00:53:56] Dr. Taylor Brana: Well, when I say results, so, if we’re going to talk about business creation, most consistent operations where you start to build something, you will not see the actual true results of monetization and those types of things for at least three to five years. Usually. Someone who works consistently will not get the true results, the deeper results until like five years out. So, the results we’re talking about might be small at first, but if you do cultivate, whatever it is, for example, like playing an instrument like at first, you’re just, you know, you’re, you’re playing different keys. You barely know what the chords are, but after a certain amount of time, in a certain amount of years, you can make music. That’s the results. And to make music when it comes to certain things, it’s going to take years. So don’t get discouraged after a few years. Right. We don’t expect a medical student to be an attending in four years. We expect them to be attending in 8 to 10 years. Right? 

[00:54:54] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah. It’s a process. And I think a big skill for, especially, I don’t want to say not, I want to say for everyone, I would say not any generation or anything, but like a big skill to learn for today is patience. Patience at a macro and micro level, I think everyone can learn that being patient for something to cultivate something and keep, kinda like, working at something, it’s going to take time, and be patient. But also trying to get the best of where you are in the process and not, not being, when I get to this, I just like, hey, I get to do this. And you know, just kind of learning what you can and where you are, and making the best of it. I think that comes back to that perspective and being grateful, tying all these things together. 

[00:55:49] Dr. Taylor Brana: It’s, it’s funny because everything we’re talking about are these like just salient and consistent truths that you just have to apply. You know, we call it wisdom. Perspective. Gratitude. Persistence. Pursuing your potential. Patience. Competence, competence, beginner’s mindset, confidence, all, all these different pieces of this conversation. It’s all wisdom, but wisdom needs to be applied. And if, if you don’t, if you’re listening to this podcast, and you didn’t, if you will listen to this right now, and you’re hearing me talk, you’re hearing Neel talk, and you didn’t take one thing and you didn’t use that, then you’ve lost it, because wisdom is the application of truth. So if you’re not applying the truth and you’re not hearing a lesson that you can’t take away from this, you know, unfortunately, I don’t know. I don’t know what else there is to say. 

[00:56:53] Dr. Neel Desai: Yeah, we can’t help you. 

[00:56:56] Dr. Taylor Brana: But we’re here presenting the hoops and we’re calling it wisdom. And if you apply them, and you reach out and you do the good work, your success is going to be there.

[00:57:06] Dr. Neel Desai: And we’re doing this cause we’re learning this too. Like, we’re not perfect. You know, we fucked up so much, like totally screwed up too. 

[00:57:15] Dr. Taylor Brana: I’m sure we’ll fuck up some more. So 

[00:57:16] Dr. Neel Desai: of course we will. That’s inevitable. My wife will tell you about that. She’ll tell you how many times – she could do a whole podcast on that, a whole season, but anyway. Yeah, but the big thing is just applying it and, I think we’ve learned, we’re still learning, everyone’s learning. So we’re all in our process. 

[00:57:38] Dr. Taylor Brana: We’re all in a great process. And I think if you feel like you’re done learning, then you might have some learning to do. 

[00:57:44] Dr. Neel Desai: Then you’re going to be, you know what? Then you’re going to be, especially in our field, you will have a great wake up call very fast. You’re going to have a rude awakening really quick as our, our profession humbles you very quickly. Ego is a dangerous thing. 

[00:57:58] Dr. Neel Desai: Definitely. Humility is good. 

[00:58:01] Dr. Taylor Brana: Well, I think that was great. That was fun. 

[00:58:03] Dr. Neel Desai: that was fun, that was cool. That was good.

[00:58:04] Dr. Taylor Brana: All right. Well, I think we’ll close out for today and thanks everyone for listening and Neel, thanks for asking some great questions. 

[00:58:13] Dr. Neel Desai: All right. Thanks everyone.